Protest Against Miramar Resort in Taidong (抵制美麗灣渡假村)

[irishstu]

Jesus - it's a just cause. I understand questioning the methodology but I'm not sure why some are getting so negative about this. If naysayers don't want to support the organizers of the concert, they can go off and support whatever they believe are more worthy causes. But let the people have their event without being such assholes about it. An awareness raising concert near the site sounds like a great idea to me.

Me too. Good luck, Dulan drift.

[sandman]

You're doing it wrong. You've got no chance. You're wanking in the sand. You're wasting your time.

Some great responses there. What stalwarts! Absolutely pathetic.

[Anonymous]

at least there's some music on a normally awfully quiet beach.

[ThreadKiller]

at least there's some music on a normally awfully quiet beach.

You mean "a normally awfully quiet, previously unblemished beach".

I'm just happy that there are people like Dulan drift who take a stand against big business.

[Anonymous]

I'm just happy that there are people like Dulan drift who take a stand against big business.

So am I + standing against a government run by Kǒng Fūzǐ scholars.

[ThreadKiller]

you have really weird friends. Its kind of hard to argue about a metaphor that includes wanking and a random hot wild twisted beautiful women. In any case, the guy gets lucky!

Yep, weird and wonderful.

Maybe you should consider a fund raiser in Taipei to hire proper lawyers instead of whacking off in the sand.

We don't actually need fundraisers in Taipei to 'hire proper lawyers' coz we've got a damn good one already - and he works for free. In fact every time we've been to court he's kicked their arse. (And making quite a name for himself while he's at it - and good luck to him.) You may have noticed in a previous post where it was mentioned that the anti-Miramar Resort Coalition recently won a court case that declared the hotel to have been illegaly constructed. And that was the Supreme Court. Doesn't matter how highly paid or proper your lawyer is, he can't do any better than that - it's just not possible - there is nothing higher than the Supreme Court.

The problem is that the Taidong Council, jiggled by the Miramar Resort and their billions of dollars, is ignoring the ruling. The judge makes his or her decison and bangs the gavel down, but they don't then jump in their car and drive over to Taidong and enforce the ruling. That's the job of the Taidong Council, who in turn, will instruct the police. But as the Taidong Council were in cahoots with the project from the word go, that's unfortunately where it breaks down.

Besides raising awareness, I don't see any point of the concert.

Given that the movement has been down all the legal channels and followed them to the end, I would have thought 'raising awareness' was a pretty good 'point of the concert' to be persuing at this stage. What's left but the court of public opinion? So far as i can see, public exposure of the shady dealings between the Miramar Resort and the Taidong Council is the only option left.

Before last year's concert, and i can't speak for others, but there was a personal sense that 'i don't know if we're gonna be able to stop them, but we're not gonna let this abomination go through without a word of protest'. But to then see that coming together at the concert, and especially the (historical?) groundswell in aboriginal politcal and cultural consciousness that remains the basis of the movement - the feeling was that this might indeed be a winnable thing. If you don't believe me Doc, then come down on July 28 and see for yourself, and i would look forward to reading a post from you when you got back.

[Anonymous]

We don't actually need fundraisers in Taipei to 'hire proper lawyers' coz we've got a damn good one already - and he works for free. In fact every time we've been to court he's kicked their arse. (And making quite a name for himself while he's at it - and good luck to him.) You may have noticed in a previous post where it was mentioned that the anti-Miramar Resort Coalition recently won a court case that declared the hotel to have been illegaly constructed. And that was the Supreme Court. Doesn't matter how highly paid or proper your lawyer is, he can't do any better than that - it's just not possible - there is nothing higher than the Supreme Court.

Its good that you have proper representation.
How does he want to proceed to get the government to destroy the hotel then?
Its nice you still believe in Taiwan's justice system.

Personally, I believe Miramar will just apply again (like the 48 others establishments you mentioned) or find other loop holes.
The thing is, in Taiwan you don't even need loop holes. All you need to do is 'argue and wait'.
Is there any judgement that it has to be destroyed, and if yes, which time line?
So if you say the bottle neck is the Taidong government how can you push them (besides pressure).
I've seen literally hundreds of cases as the one you describe about so called "illegal constructions" that later on become OK due to some weird "redevelopment plans".

Before last year's concert, and i can't speak for others, but there was a personal sense that 'i don't know if we're gonna be able to stop them, but we're not gonna let this abomination go through without a word of protest'. But to then see that coming together at the concert, and especially the (historical?) groundswell in aboriginal politcal and cultural consciousness that remains the basis of the movement

Yes, I have no doubt its good for raising awareness or keeping the group together. Good luck to you.
It involves a lot of money (the most important thing to most politicians here) so its usually a lost cause,
no matter how much supreme it gets or how many concerts you throw...

In other news: http://www.taiwantoday.tw/ct.asp?xitem= ... CtNode=416

[ThreadKiller]

Its nice you still believe in Taiwan's justice system.

Who still believes in any system? You still have to fight it if you want any hope for a change, surely? It seems impossible, but sometimes things are actually accomplished, albeit slowly.

[Anonymous]

Its nice you still believe in Taiwan's justice system.

Who still believes in any system? You still have to fight it if you want any hope for a change, surely? It seems impossible, but sometimes things are actually accomplished, albeit slowly.

You are right.
Unfortunately Miramar thinks like this too!

[dulan drift]

Its good that you have proper representation.
How does he want to proceed to get the government to destroy the hotel then?
Its nice you still believe in Taiwan's justice system.

Actually, i don't think there's too many people in the movement that have blind faith in the justice system because they've seen too many of the court's rulings ignored. Hence the focus on raising awareness and building public pressure on the Miramar Resort. However, those rulings that have gone against the hotel (actually every case has gone against them) can still be used in the public discussion to emphasize the corrupt behaviour of the conglomerate. It's not just 'a bunch of tree-hugging hippie activists' telling everyone what they want - there are actual court rulings the movement can reference to paint the hotel as an illegal construction in the public's mind.

Probably the next case will be the hotel's claim for compensation. Interestingly, they have used this as one of their major arguments for being allowed to continue: 'If you don't let us continue, then we are going to sue the council (in this case the general public) for billions of dollars.' The council itself has often cited that as a reason for letting them continue. However, the lawyer is confident he can win this case as well - on the grounds that you can't knowingly commit an illegal action and then later sue the taxpayer when you get caught.

Personally, I believe Miramar will just apply again (like the 48 others establishments you mentioned) or find other loop holes.
The thing is, in Taiwan you don't even need loop holes. All you need to do is 'argue and wait'.
Is there any judgement that it has to be destroyed, and if yes, which time line?
So if you say the bottle neck is the Taidong government how can you push them (besides pressure).
I've seen literally hundreds of cases as the one you describe about so called "illegal constructions" that later on become OK due to some weird "redevelopment plans"...It involves a lot of money (the most important thing to most politicians here) so its usually a lost cause, no matter how much supreme it gets or how many concerts you throw...

You are quite right about them 'arguing and waiting'. In fact, their entire strategy from the beginning was to just ignore every rule in the book to build it, then later say, 'well it's built now', and indeed, they have already attempted to rush through a new sham EIA despite the Supreme Court ruling that the hotel must first be demolished and the land restored to its orginal condition before they are allowed to apply again. However, as it stands, there is no judgement that the hotel must be destroyed forthwith - only that work must stop and that it's not allowed to open.

As for the Taidong Council - public exposure to the point where the Central Government was forced to intervene would seem to be the only course of action. Already there is some support for the Aboriginal/Environmentalist Coalition from across party lines with both KMT and DPP lawmakers coming out against the hotel. If you know of another strategy, then feel free to share it. But if it's just 'Give up, you can't win' then i guess we'd say come down for the concert and see if you still have that attitude afterwards. Sure it's not easy, it's a huge challenge, and the nature of a 'challenge' is that there's no guarantee that you are going to win. But if it's something that goes to the core of your belief system, i don't think the odds being against you should prevent you from taking that challenge up and giving it your best shot.

We do realize that there have been hundreds, even thousands of corrupt land development schemes in Taiwan and that the Miramar Resort's tactics are in fact pretty normal. But in this particular case the movement believes the time has come to draw a line in the sand and make a united stand against this institutionalized corruption and greed and work for an historical change in the public consciousness regarding aboriginal rights and the environment. Might sound too grandiose, but that's the plan. People will say that 'this is Taiwan, you can never win' but in fact there have been a lot of changes for the better in Taiwan in the 15 plus years that i have been here. We think the time is ripe for another major one.

Already this movement has progressed way beyond a small group of local artists and Shan Yuan Beach residents that first took up the cudgels. When they began, i doubt they were terribly confident of success. But this is now a mass movement with good media coverage and a cyber network of tens of thousands of supporters and it's growing by the day. The momentum to save a stretch of Taiwan's amazing natural beauty is there - we need to ride that momentum as far as we can and see where it takes us. Why not?

And if you want a pretty simple, but still effective way to build that momentum, then just go to this FB page and click 'share' on a couple of photos. We are confident that when people know the facts of the case, they will support us.
http://www.facebook.com/Taidong.protestconcert?sk=wall

[ChinaCat]

...despite the Supreme Court ruling that the hotel must first be demolished and the land restored to its orginal condition before they are allowed to apply again. However, as it stands, there is no judgement that the hotel must be destroyed forthwith - only that work must stop and that it's not allowed to open.

I'm a little confused. Your statements above seem a bit contradictory. Can you please clarify???

Edit: OK... I think I see... Your saying that the SC judgment states that if they want to apply for a new EIA, they must first demolish the hotel... but, there is no ruling ordering them to demolish the hotel, presently (unless they want to apply for a new EIA)... right?

[dulan drift]

...despite the Supreme Court ruling that the hotel must first be demolished and the land restored to its orginal condition before they are allowed to apply again. However, as it stands, there is no judgement that the hotel must be destroyed forthwith - only that work must stop and that it's not allowed to open.

I'm a little confuese. Your statements above seem a bit contradictory. Can you please clarify???

Edit: OK... I think I see... You saying that the SC judgment states that if they want to apply for a new EIA, they must first demolish the hotel... but, there is no ruling ordering them to demolish the hotel, presently (unless they want to apply for a new EIA)... right?

Correct.

[maoman]

Getting down to Taidong at this time of year can be problematic, so it's been announced that an offical Protest Bus will be available to take people down and back. The cost is only $750 for a round trip, which is less than half the price of the train - on which it is virtually impossible to get a seat anyway - and it also runs direct to the protest site on Shan Yuan Beach.

Dept Taipei: July 28, 8am
From: Taipei Central Station, East Door, no.3
Return to Taipei: July 29, 11 am

The bus runs direct to the protest site at Shan Yuan Beach in Taidong county.

To be sure of getting a seat, you will need to book. Here is the link: https://e-info.neticrm.tw/civicrm/event/info?reset=1&id=72
It's in Chinese so you might need to get someone to help you navigate your way through it.

[Anonymous]

What is the latest news on this? Will there be a ruling that is ordering them to demolish the hotel?

I still don't get the connection with the Miramar Hongkong group (that post seems to be missing now though).
It seems "Mira mar" just means "sea view".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miramar

Miramar is a place name of Portuguese and Spanish origin. It means "sea-view" or "sea sight", from mira ("watch") and mar ("sea").

It seems to be used a lot of times, there's even a couple of places in Florida with that name.
So who is really behind it?

[dulan drift]

What is the latest news on this? Will there be a ruling that is ordering them to demolish the hotel?

I still don't get the connection with the Miramar Hongkong group (that post seems to be missing now though).
It seems "Mira mar" just means "sea view".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miramar

Miramar is a place name of Portuguese and Spanish origin. It means "sea-view" or "sea sight", from mira ("watch") and mar ("sea").

It seems to be used a lot of times, there's even a couple of places in Florida with that name.
So who is really behind it?

Yeah, you're right, it's a common name, and can lead to some confusion when trying to track down the complicated lineage of conglomerates. The Miramar Resort is a company which, in turn, is owned by a larger company called Durban Development. They recently tried to sell to an even larger Hong Kong company called Mayer Holdings, but the deal fell through at the last minute due to Durban being unable to fulfill certain requirements. Interestingly, the directors of Durban also sit on the board of Mayer, so there's some connection there.

The protest concert was a big success in terms of building public pressure momentum against the hotel and the Miramar Resort now holds the distinction of being the subject of the biggest ever environmental protest in Taiwan's history.

Currently, there is no ruling ordering them to demolish the hotel, though the protest group's lawyer is working on that. As it stands, the hotel has been ruled illegal by the Supreme Court which has also ordered a halt to construction.

A supporter of the protest movement has offered to demolish the hotel for NT$1.